You've been told you must build trust and credibility to grow your business, right? And that the key to building your business is to bombard potential customers with irresistible offers.
But you've done that. Turns out, they resist your offers, trust you less and you feel like a jerk.
There's got to be a better way, right?
Matthew Burns has that solution: create trust before the sale.
Matthew explains how to do that, as well as:
Matthew Burns has mastered the art of creating trust before the sale. He's a partner in Wizard of Ads, an international agency renowned for their innovative marketing. His work centers around making businesses known and loved long before a sale is made.
He's got a track record for delivering exceptional results, and an unconventional approach to building trust.
00:07:58 - The Role of Negatives in Trust
00:15:52 - Using Social Media to Highlight Vulnerabilities
00:17:53 - Sharing Screw-Ups Builds Trust
00:25:25 - Trusting First to Gain Trust
00:38:00 - Becoming the Trusted Choice
00:45:21 - Selling the Negative
00:50:35 - Pricing Transparency
00:59:24 - Vulnerability and Authenticity
01:06:18 - Never Worry About Making Mistakes
Resources for this episode
Contact at: email@example.com
Book discussed: The Moral Molecule
Matthew's LinkedIn Profile
Matthew's Instagram Profile
At Cult Your Brand, we're obsessive about loyalty - how to get it, how to keep it, what to do so you never lose it.
Ready to transform your slightly-better-than-average brand into a lovable, personable powerhouse brand? Let's talk.
Contact information for Jack Heald & Cult Your Brand
Jack: Well, thanks for joining us, folks. This is, as you heard, the Cult Your Brand podcast. And my guest today is - it's weird to say this, but he's become one of my favorite people - one of my partners, Matthew Burns. And the reason I say it's weird is because we haven't known each other very long, but Matthew's he's, he's my kind of weirdo. So welcome man.
Matthew: Hey buddy. Thank you for thank you for inviting me. This is great.
Jack: So as I mentioned, the, the theme of this show is, is as much as anything, it's how to use our understanding of how the human mind works to help our clients and our customers and our members to persuade people and to create unbreakable emotional connections. You and I are working on a project right now that I just got, got a huge kick out of what we have conceived and we may talk about that.
We, we may get specific so folks can, can do, can, can look it up, but but you and I both, when we heard about the rebrand, when we decided on the rebrand, we were going to do, we both instantly went, Oh my God, this is going to be awesome.
Matthew: Kids in a candy store. That's literally what it was. It was kids in a candy store.
There was enough. There's, there's enough mental imagery that we could play with and mold and, and, and put into the minds of the, of the consumer that these guys, this, this company is just not going to know what hit them. Once, once the radio ad started a couple of months or a month and a bit, it's a month and a half now.
Jack: Which reminds me, I may or may not edit this out. We apparently have a, some, some more radio work to do on this. Yeah, not too much, but I got an assignment. All right, so let's, let's get down to specifics about your skill set. You have a set of skills. I have a particular set of skills. You have a set of skills that are highly in demand.
In in the, the world in which we travel, talk about what you do just kind of in general and it's, it's okay to boast a little bit. It's
Matthew: hard, it's hard to tell you, tell people what you do without boasting a little bit. So yeah, actually, and really recently and, and, I give thanks to some of my other partners within the Wizard of Ads, our little cult of our own.
Totally not a cult. Totally not a cult. That we, we started doing marketing roadshows where we travel out to different cities and just do, just communicate about the tips and tricks and the weirdness that you'd need to do to become understood, liked and loved before that your customer chooses you.
And And the reason why I was asked is because I've done a lot of research in the last little bit and, and, and pulled a lot of good examples of of how to be trusted. I think it's funny, you think about, you think about trust and this, and this is my, my, my portion of my, of the roadshow. This is what I talk about is the portion of trust that you need or the amount of trust that you need to, to, to, to bring on a new client.
And, and, you know, we, we ask, I mean, I'll, I'll ask you and you can, you can behave kind of like one of our customers, like, is trust important in a sale is trust important.
Jack: Well, if, if, if I'm buying a commodity item over the counter at the local gas station I don't need a lot of trust because if, if it all.
Pans out poorly. I haven't risked much, right? I think the amount of trust is, is directly proportional to the amount of perceived risk.
Matthew: Okay, great. So let's, so let's talk about, I mean, a lot of our clients are home service providers, right? So HVAC guys, plumbers, roofing guys, right? We have a lot of that.
Kind of in our realm. And so we're talking about potentially high ticket items, right? You can have a nice, you know, air conditioning, heating job that could be, you know, up to 25, 30, 000. It's a lot of money to transfer hands. And there's a, there's a lot riding on it being done, right? So how important then for that customer is it that they trust you?
To make the sale happen.
Jack: I would think that's pretty close to the top of the list.
Matthew: Okay. So, so what are, what are ways that you can, that the companies typically build trust with their customers to get the sale?
Jack: I mean, the reason The reason our, our little conglomeration, I never know what to call us, the wizard of ads partners, because we're not a company. I called us a federation the other day, but the reason we exist is because so many people are so bad. At conveying trust.
Matthew: Conveying trust. Well, here's, and here's the interesting thing is we're, we're bad at conveying trust, but it's because we don't realize what happens in, in building of trust.
And, and that's it's 'cause everybody, we, we do it innately. So here's the, here's the cool thing is we do it innately. And I'll, and, and, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna stay on track for a second. How I, how I, when I, when I talk to my, to, to, when I go into the road show, What I do is I say, okay, great. So give me some examples.
Like most of the examples you get are, well, we, you know, we we, we, we do, we say, we're going to do, we show up on time. We you know, we get good Google reviews, right? And it's like, those are all great things. Absolutely. Do what you say you're going to do, take care of the customer, show up on time. But when does that happen before?
The sale or after the sale. That's after. And you get the doe in the headlight look. You're like, oh yeah. I never thought about it that way. So okay, great.
Jack: By the way, did you just call it dough in the headlight? Yeah,
Matthew: like, or deer in the headlight, I guess. You're right. I was wrong. I was wrong.
Jack: I have to, I have to apologize to my, to my listeners.
Matthew is from, from Canada.
So when he said like an air conditioner is 25, 000 or 30, 000, that's like 900 American.
Matthew: I'm sorry. It's a heavy exchange. I know. It's so true.
Jack: Apparently it's a doe in the headlights up in Canada.
Matthew: No, the saying is deer in the headlights. And Jack, thank you for, thank you for keeping me on the straight and narrow.
Jack: Hey, don't just hit on me for that. If you do that, who knows where we're going to end up.
Matthew: Yeah, exactly. So, no, so we, I get these, I get these clients to get these customers and I get the audience members. They're just staring at me like, Oh man, like hitting the head. And I said, okay, great.
So, so then how can you, how do you build trust beforehand? Right. How can you deliver on your promise before you're, you're even called on for the promise? Well, it's not easy. I mean, here's, here's the, the golden rule is it's not easy, no matter which way you cut it. It's not easy, but we can do it. But, but as long as you practice and you, and you, and you, you, you put some effort in, it's actually.
It becomes a lot more intuitive. And so here's what we talk about. My name is Matthew Burns and I'm a marketer. And so right off the hop, you can't believe anything I say, because my job is to influence and persuade and manipulate the human mind to do the things that my clients need to do. So you can not trust anything that comes out of my mouth.
Fair, right? Okay, so if that's all true. And you believe me, the next thing I say, you can believe as well. And this is this, I have a best friend. His name is Andrew Bowman. Okay. He lives about 10 or 15 minutes from my house and Andrew is lactose intolerant. Yeah. What that means is, is that when he says, Hey dude, my favorite, my favorite dessert in the entire world is Dairy Queen.
He can trust me that I'm never taking him out for Dairy Queen ever. Not once, because what I can trust is that if he eats Dairy Queen. I'm going to have this foul stench around me for the next X because this butt is going to be on fire and, and, and, and so this is something I know truly and deeply about him here.
Jack, do this in your mind. Who's the person you trust most in the world? Got them. You're right. Perfect. Okay. So I'm going to, I'm going to say this. I'm going to ask you to give me what's, what's the, what, what is the number one thing that you know about her that is her best, absolute best quality.
Jack: She she is kind at the core of her being.
Matthew: That's beautiful. That's what she's just that she's just an inner glow of light that wants everything to be amazing. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And, and, and I'm so happy that I got to meet her. Oh, last week, actually, not that long ago. And she was pleasant as a plum. Just, I know it's a peach, right? Pleasant as a peach. I think that's an American thing too.
Jack: Probably. I mean, I'm now, I'm now, I'm going to be on guard for how he's thinking folks.
Matthew: So, so, okay. So, you know, now I'm not going to get you to, to, to say one of these, but I'm so now, is it fair to say you also know all of the things about her that are not necessarily favorable?
Jack: Well, I don't know that I've known her long enough for that to be true, but I know quite a few,
Matthew: you know, there's, there's some, okay, here, I just said, my best friend is probably one of the, like my wife, my best friend, Andrew, I trust these people with my life, but I also know their negatives.
I know, I know just how far I can trust one specific thing or another. Okay. So, so there's this, there's this concept called parasocial relationships. Okay. Parasocial. Parasocial relationships. Parasocial relationships. And so this is, this is the phenomena that we see with people who actually believe they know Klo Kardashian.
Ah, right. You think about that show and how, I mean, now listen, we know a lot of it is staged, but is it a, is it this perfect lifestyle of, of rich and famous? No, because that you can't believe that because if everything is perfect and there's nothing negative, right? Do you believe the hero? Do you believe that Luke Skywalker was going to be the absolute best hero at the end?
If he didn't have this, these, this, this naive ingenue, no real understanding of the universe, right? He had to come to a come to Jesus moment, right? The negatives is what brings the trust. It's not the positive men, everybody's had a salesman come in and well, we're going to come in here and we're going to fix everything.
It's gonna be great. It's gonna cost 13. 99 and you go, man, this is too good to be true.
Jack: The negatives are essential prerequisites for the trust.
Matthew: There is no trust without them.
Jack: This is making sparks in my brain. It feels right. It's it, it sounds, yeah, I think that makes sense. And I'd like you to expand on it.
Matthew: Okay. So here, I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you a wizard of add example. Okay. We just, we just had a, so, so fair enough to say we just had a a Wizard of Ad meeting. We have, we have two a year. We get together as a group. We tell each other stories. We, we give examples of, of awesome things we've done and we help each other, especially like if we have a newer partner come in, some older partners, the Sage partners, they come in and they give us some really cool tidbits about how we can help.
Our clients to grow and be successful. And so Roy, who is the original wizard of ads, he wrote the books, the trilogy that we all kind of use as Bible. He went off this, this meeting, like he went off cause he was very disappointed that what we did. What we've been, we'll be, we'll be been lax to do, which was to give the negatives of long term marketing to our customers before we take their money.
Guys, this is inside information. Please don't share it with anybody that just, just for this is just for this, this little show please understand like this is inside mission. What we've done is, is we've actually lost the trust of our customer as soon as. As soon as the negative that we know is going to be a negative, it's coming up.
It's going to hit them. Okay, guys, if you want to be successful and you want, and anybody listening ever decides, Hey, listen, Jack has got the, the, the guys in his back pocket to help me grow my business. I'm going to get Jack to help me out. And Jack doesn't tell you that to use mass media, you are going to be very disappointed in us in six months because it takes at least six months...
Jack: You're going to hate us.
Matthew: ... and you're going to think that you've made a terrible mistake.
Right, right. But if we don't tell you that, how do you trust us when we say, but it will work within the first year? It's a promise. It's our credo. We call it the chickening out period. We have a name for it. We talk about this all the time, but we've had customers who we were like, Oh man, this customer doesn't seem well, then they're not the right customer for us.
Don't take that customer on because two things, we're going to steal from them because we're going to take in their money for six months. We're not giving it back and they're going to quit and it's gone out the door, stolen. We do not steal. Doesn't happen. Right? Fair. Absolutely. Two, we've caused them a lot of emotional grief.
This is our clients. Listen, anybody listening, our clients that come to us are usually flat for two or three years, or they're declining slightly. They're nervous that their business is not going to make it. They say, Hey, come and help me. And we say, Hey, as long as you understand, we're going to spend two or three months setting up a program for you.
And then you've got six months. So this is nine months of investment and emotional investment. That's, this is, this is why we do that, Jack. It's to help them understand and to, so they can trust us. Now, if we were liars and cheats and, and, and, and, and, you know, ne'er do wells, well then, no matter what we said, it would still come out, it would be negative.
But our reputation is king. Everybody knows if you hire the Wizard of Ads, if you can afford us, if you can stick it out long enough, you will be brilliant. So there's a little bit of our brag. I mean, we get to say this, this is, we're not, we're not in year one of this, we don't, we, there's, I can't remember the new number, but for the longest time for the last five or six years, I've been talking about how we control a billion dollars of marketing budget. The new number is bigger because over the last five years. The new number is bigger. Roy, Roy talked about that here in just the last month or so.
Jack: Right. And I don't know what the number was, but it was, holy crap. Like, what?
Matthew: Right. So, so how do we help our, how do we help our customers then?
How do we help. How do we help your, the job is you say, Hey, Matthew, you know, let's, let's, let's jump on a podcast and talk to you about, and I know you're doing these talks, talk about your thing. How do, so then how do your viewers get some help and how do they use the tools? Cause we, they should be able to leave this, this podcast, leave this, this YouTube channel and go, Oh man, I took something away.
This is the magic. Ready?
Use social media.
I mean, I'm going to preface this. I was going to go down a road, but I got to make sure you understand this. Yeah. If you're listening and you're a business, you're, you've already got some traction. You've already got something. Okay. So I'm talking to the customer that's going, Hey, wait a second. I'm at this point.
I got to do something better. I got to do something more. Use social media to highlight a vulnerability or a weakness. Because those videos get shared when you say, Hey, we're the best in town and we have a new deal. Those don't get shared. Nobody talks about those. When you say Hey guys, we we dropped an air conditioner off the roof and we almost killed somebody.
I mean, okay, that's a little drastic, but like, if that happened, share that story. Don't be afraid of it. It's hard. It's scary. It's tricky, but let everybody know what you did to take care of the situation.
Jack: Okay, now there's, there's, there's owners and, and managers listening to this right now and their butt just clenched.
You're sure our screw ups.
Matthew: I have a, sorry, I have a, I had a roofer. And now he wasn't a client. It was a, it was a, I was, I was used to be a marketing manager for a, for a metal roofing company. So the dealer channel used to ask us for, you know, Hey, we're, you know, we want some marketing advice, blah, blah.
So I had this one dealer who he, he was an owner and he was helping out one of his techs, one of the roofing guys, and he got up on the ladder and he fell off the roof and he broke both his wrists.
My, my immediate advice to him was post that because now you get to talk about safety without it sounding like you're being overhanded. You get to now talk about safety because look what I did, right? Two, two, two full casts on your arms. You can't even eat. You gotta have, you gotta be fed for two weeks.
You know how hard that is? You know what lesson I learned? You know what I'm never gonna do? Not tie off. You know what my guys now have to sign off on every single time is not tying up. Yeah. This was a couple of years ago and this is the picture that happened, but this is what I learned from that. This will never happen on your house.
Cause we won't let that mistake happen again. Oh my God, you just told me you fell off a roof. How can I not trust that? You're not going to let that happen again. We're everybody like they quashed that, that really big name. Okay. Better than that. The, the, the, the, the air conditioning story, right. There was a different dealer, same, same group, different dealer.
They had a snow slide cause it was a metal roof. The snow slid off, but they didn't put on the snow guards. To hold the snow on the roof, Canadian, Canadian company,
Jack: I live in the American Southwest desert. Yeah. Yeah. I'd have no earthly idea what a snow guard is.
Matthew: Yeah. So snow guard is a little cleat. Do I have one?
I gotta have one. You know what? I have one. I guarantee it.
Jack: You have a cleat. Oh my gosh. Okay.
Matthew: There's a, there's a snow guard I used, listen, I was the marketing manager. I got a whole, okay. There's, there's part of the, the, the, on the birdhouse, there's a metal roof. There's a, there's one of the, the ridge caps is on there, so, all right, so that's a snow guard and, and you put on, you know, one every foot and a half to two feet, and then you stagger them and ice bridges between them, and then it holds the rest of the snow on for the rest of the season.
That's what this does. Okay. This little piece of metal, they're expensive. It's like 15 to get one of those things installed. One. Okay. When you don't install them in Canada or in the North of the United States, snow falls off the roof slides like a, like a freight train and whatever's underneath it doesn't survive.
I have a picture. Oh, I don't. Do I have this love the picture? Can I, if I can find the picture, I'll send it to you so you can throw it into this. If not, I promise you guys this is a real story. I had a client send to Armadura, the metal roofing company, sent us an image of their dogs with their heads It's poking out of the snow like this going like,
right? And and because the back of the garage that puts no snow guards on and the snow came off and buried their dogs post that picture post that picture. We did that. That's our mistake. You know what we did? We put on snow guards. We didn't charge them. And we asked for the vet bill.
Ooh, whatever it takes to take care of your animals, we That's on, that's on us. We will never want to see that happen to your animals. We are so sorry. No. Now no dogs were harmed in the making of this conversation. . They both, there was two of them. One of them was poked out, the other one was barely out.
Like it was on the other side. They didn't see 'em and they brushed out. Right? Like they, they, they take care of it, but like, That's the, that's the drasticness that you can go and show a negative where people go, holy crap, you live through that and you're still like, you're still in business. Yeah, we will never, we'll never make that mistake again.
Jack: So you're talking about, you're talking about. Revealing and maybe that's too strong a word, but, but the things that that instinct and conventional wisdom both say that's That stays inside the family. Nobody knows about that. We don't talk about that. That's right. We're talking about actually making it focusing attention on that via social media.
Matthew: 100%. I'll give you, I'll give you one more example. One really, this is, and this is a good one because it's not so drastic. Because people are going like, yeah, but I'm, we do such a good job. We never drop air conditioning units and we never have these big accidents happen. Right. So I was giving you the extreme, let's go the other way.
So we have a client my part, our, our partner, Stephen Semple, he onboarded a client asked me to be, to do the ad writing and their name is Seaside Plumbing and they're in Ocean City, Maryland. Okay. And I've, by the way, I use them in my talk. So I'm allowed to use this data, the way it's all free and good.
And you can go on the social media page and find the picture so that it's all valid. But, but I use this in the talk where I say, there's a picture of the owners at the radio station. Where they, where they record the ads, right? So you got the nice fancy mic and it's a husband and wife. Their names are Lauren and Josh.
And Josh is like us, man. He's outgoing, extroverted. He wants to, you know, he pleases everybody and he's, and he embellishes and he knows how to talk on the radio. He's really, I love him on the radio ads, but I love his wife more because. She hates it. She hates every ounce of reading for radio. She, she doesn't like the whole idea of, of, of the, the ad.
Honestly, she doesn't even like the ad campaign. She wishes she was nowhere near it. She hates it. She has, I guess
Jack: she features in the, in the ad campaign.
Matthew: Oh yeah. She's, she's half of the ad campaign. And so, and so there's a picture of Josh. He takes, it's a selfie, like one of these. Right. And, and, and she's like this,
don't take a picture of me. I don't want to be here. And, and so, so she goes, and he says, guess which one of us doesn't like, doesn't like the radio commercials. And this is the owner of the company. The owner of the company doesn't like the radio commercials, doesn't want to do the work, but does it anyway?
Can you trust that they're going to take care of everything else in your life? Even if it's uncomfortable, we do it because it's right on
Jack: this. Just intuitively. I, I, I can feel my brain logically trying to, to work through what are the steps that make this all work? My gut tells me, Oh my God, this is tremendously
I don't know if you guys can see this. This is called the moral molecule. Okay. It was written
Jack: by Paul J. Zach.
Matthew: Okay. Okay. So I'm, I'm, I'm read the book. The first half of the book is, sorry, sorry, Paul. The first half of the book is so much better than the last half of the book. It gets really heavy into the weeds, but for, for anybody who wants to really try to understand why Trust works or how the best way to get trust from your potential customers before they need the product or service you have to off is giving trust.
Think about it. Oh,
Jack: of course I trust you enough to tell you how I screwed up. I believe in you and that you're not going to use this information to destroy me.
Matthew: You're not going to ridicule or, or make fun of, or, right? I'm trusting you with data that could potentially harm me. You know, that reminds
Jack: me of, did you see Asia Greggs?
Matthew: I, I am the worst partner on the planet cause I showed up at one o'clock on the second day cause I was with a client. All right.
Jack: Asia has not agreed to be on the show yet and I'm, I'm, I cannot wait to
Matthew: get her on. Oh yeah guys. You'll love Asia. Shout out for Asia.
Jack: She, she talks about a scene. I think it's out of eight mile where Eminem is in a rap battle.
And I think, by the way, I'm using phraseology about a world that I know. Absolutely. So if I've gotten it wrong,
Matthew: sorry, Asia, yes.
Jack: But what she describes is that he is that he knows that his opponent is, is going to Thank you. Thank you. Make his weaknesses and his flaws, the centerpiece of whatever he's coming up with.
And so he, because he goes first, he makes his weaknesses and flaws, the centerpiece of what he's taught. He takes all the ammunition away from his opponent, right? Right. I don't know what happened in the, in the rest of the scene, I assumed, and you know, the hero get got the girl, but.
Matthew: Right. Well, so, so, and, and, okay, and I'm going to, I'm going to correct you a little.
So yes, that's, it is exactly what we're talking about. It's giving up of a flaw or a weakness so that it's so that you take away the sting. That's what you're talking about. Cause like if I walked into a room and say, Hey guys, I'm fat. Nobody can go look at the. Oh yeah. He already called himself fat. Right.
Right. So that's one thing. What I'm saying is, is that by trusting first. You get trust in return. Now, guys, this is not a hundred percent. It's always going to work this way. Guys, everybody's going to, there's somebody there's the 1 percent of the population is always going to try and find the manipulative, take advantage of like, like Kessler jewelers, right?
One of Roy's clients. And this is, this is a long time ago play. He still does it to today, but he trusted his clients. So Roy said, I want you to guarantee the center diamond. Of all the rings you sell guarantee it for life, always for life, forever. That center cut, if it ever falls out of your setting, you'll replace it for free.
And, and, and yeah, I think that puckering up just happened again with all of your business owners where they're like, there's no way there's not, that didn't, it did happen. Here's what happened. Roy, he said, I can't do that. Right away. I can't do that. Like, you know, like people are going to be ripping me off left.
Right. So I've been giving diamonds away. I'd be like the diamond giveaway store. That's not where we make money by selling diamonds. I'm a business owner. He says, okay. Do me a favor. What's the, what's the most expensive diamond? So forget the setting, everything else. What's the most, most expensive diamond you have that you can sell?
He says, I don't know. It's like 50, 000. Great. Take 50, 000 out of the marketing budget. Roy put his money where his mouth was. He trusted the client. The client went, okay, well, what is that going to do? We'll take it out of the thing. Run this for me for one year. At the end of one year, we'll see how much that 50, 000 was spent.
And if it's way more than you stop, as soon as it gets a 50, just stop it. Change the campaign bullet. You're done. It goes. Oh, okay. And he did it gets to the end of the first year. So we know we didn't get to our 50, 000. Okay. So how much money got taken out of the marketing budget? Can you guess,
Jack: do you know the story?
No, I do not. I would guess. 5,000.
Matthew: It was in between five to 8, 000. I can't remember the exact number, but it was less than 10. I know it was more than five, five to 8, 000. I think it was. And so five to 8, 000 out of a 50, 000. I think if he now just made himself 45 or 42, 000, he made it put a profit in his pocket because people started going, well, wait a second.
I don't want that. Now somebody took advantage of it, but it was for a small ring. Remember small minds. Do small actions, right? Okay. Somebody has to have cojones. I mean, I'm talking about steel, not these ones, not these, not these knitted ones that I have here to help people get past the chickening out period...
Jack: For our listeners who aren't looking at it, Matthew has a pair of knitted testicles.
Matthew: I there's, I have a story for that too, but maybe that's a second podcast. So I had those made for, for Roy. Cause Roy told a story once and I was like, I said, well, I, I got a friend who knits, I can get those things made. Roy says to clients, go into that bathroom and tell me if he got the cojones big enough to do this ad campaign that we want you to do.
And the guy that was, he said, yeah, yeah, I can do it. And he says, are you sure? Cause if not get your grandmother to knit you a pair, anyway, way off topic. So you like somebody to come in and say, here, I want my 50, 000 diamond ring fell out. I need it. I need it replayed. You know how brave you've got to be that you're never going to get caught with that diamond somewhere else.
Right? Like, like it's a big, so people aren't, so that's a trust play. I trust you that you're going to come in here and, and, and not rip me off. But now everybody trusts this guy that he's going to do what he says he's going to do. Yeah. You know what I mean? Give trust to get trust.
Jack: And it's, there's probably a correlation between the amount of trust that you give.
If the promise had been, we guarantee any ring up to 900...
Matthew: Brilliant, Jack, you picked on that beautifully. You picked it up perfectly. That's exactly it, right?
Jack: We immediately know, okay, you've probably got a 50 percent margin at least on these rocks. So you're risking 450 and I mean, there's, there's just no emotional power in that kind of promise.
Matthew: What do you, do you know what we call that? We call those weasel words. Yes. As soon as you add weasel words to your guarantees and promises, then it takes away the power. It takes away the trust that you're giving away. Right. So there was a one of my first, I don't know how much time we have left for you, but one of my first Experiences at the academy.
So taking a course I wasn't a wizard about partner. I was I was a marketing manager. Like I said, I went down to take this course. Next level business with Stephen simple, Gary Bernier and make Torbay. And I was in this class and there was a there's a property management company of the owner of a property management company.
And he was telling the story about how he guarantees that he'll be there within 24 hours. If there's an emergency at one of his buildings, we guarantee 24 hours. We'll be there within 24 hours to fix the problem. Okay, great. That's an awesome guarantee. What happens if you don't make it in 24 hours? This is the question that was proposed to him.
I didn't propose it, but this is what was proposed to him. And he went, he went, well, we just, we just always make it. No, no. So what's, but like for me to go, Oh, well, okay. I want to rent from those guys because they'll take care of me within 24 hours if there's a leak or the window blows out or whatever the problem is, right?
Air conditioning, he's not working with the, the oven's not working, the microwave, the fridge, there's so many things that could go wrong. I want to trust the property maintenance company is going to take care of me and you're telling me 24 hours, that's pretty good. I can live without a fridge for 24 hours, just keep the door closed, quickly grab my beer when I need it, right?
Okay, I can deal with that. 24 hours, perfect. What happens if you show up in 25 hours? Oh, we always show up. No, no, I understand. But let's, let's just say you missed. What's the consequence? What's the consequence to you so that I can trust that you're going to show up in 24 hours. So he says, well, we don't have one.
Okay, great. Let's think about this for a second. Can you afford a month's rent? If every once in a while you guys are late, he said, yeah, of course we could. So then why don't you give a month's rent? So, and then as soon as you fail, write an ad about it, tell everybody that you failed, you had to give this customer a month, a month's free rent and, and, and that you showed up in 36 hours.
And, and, and if it's a weather storm, you're going to put down, well, you know, 24 hours, unless there's a massive weather event, are you going to put that caveat in there? Right. Or unless there's a traffic jam, are you going to put that cap, the weasel word again, we go back to those weasel words. No, for any reason whatsoever, we're late.
We're not there within 24 hours to start assessing your problem. One month's free rent. He just looked at us like we were nuts. And we all jumped, everybody in the room jumped on this bandwagon, went at the guy who was like attacking him. You got to do it, man. This is the best thing ever, but he's like, And then he was like, yeah, wait a second.
We very rarely are late and I could definitely throw a couple of bucks at it. Why wouldn't I do that? And he walked away going, he took a, he took a course at the wizard academy. I guarantee he just doubled his business. Yeah, just by being better than everybody else around him by giving trust first and then people trusted him back.
Jack: So the components of this, of this move, this technique and it, and it really could be a content, just a technique. And that's part of what this show is about. I want to, I want to provide ideas, actionable ideas for things you can implement. Yeah. To, to strengthen the emotional connection between yourself and your market.
So the components are, you deliver trust first, and you have to put skin in the game.
Matthew: Lacking skin in the, that's if you're doing an advertised thing, that's if you're, if that's part of your, your guarantees and warranties, but, but the trust that you can build that you're gonna say, you're gonna, you're gonna do what you say you do.
Here's here's a good one. Here's a good one. So this is you want to you want to you want to be thought of as the person who delivers on their promise, right? So this is a place for delivering on your promise. Put on a social media post saying that next Tuesday, we're going to be showing you guys the results from our latest install or our latest build or our latest, our newest and most fantastic product.
And then on Tuesday at one in the morning or at 1201 post it. You've not sold anything. You're not, you're not asking anybody to buy anything. You just tell them guys, Hey, I'm going to, we're going to, we're going to do this thing in 48 hours. Stay tuned and then do that. And then do what you said you're going to do.
There's no cost to you because you're going to do social media posts anyway. It's not costing you more. You just now have a plan of what you're going to do. You tell people that I'm going to do it. You promise that in 20, 48 hours that you're going to have this new, this new post, and it's going to have real details and real pictures and real ideas.
And boom, you post it. That's delivering on a promise. Okay. Because that's right. And the way that you make this a flower weakness is you say, and if we don't Here's the consequence, right? The consequence is everybody gets a free one or you know what I mean? Like, and again, everybody has to take this idea and put it to their scenario, right?
Where you'll get 50 percent off, but it
Jack: still goes back to skin in the game. We're not, we're not, these are not, there are no weasel words that allow me to say, oh, well, yeah, it doesn't apply.
Matthew: It's all you have to do is, is show up now, show up. Then if the difference isn't there, we'll give you the difference.
Whatever that is. Yeah. Right. So this is, that's a technique for, that's a selling tool for, for, for, for those are the people that are in buying mode. We'll, we'll jump on that. Because remember, most people aren't in buying mode of any service that you have, right? Like how often do you have to replace an air conditioning unit?
10 to 15 years. So you've got 10 to 7, 7 to 10 percent of the population is in buying mode for an air conditioning unit. But you want a hundred percent of the people to know that you're trustworthy and amazing and great. So that when their air conditioning goes, you're the person.
Jack: They think about the next 7 percent is in black mode.
You're who they think about.
Matthew: Exactly. They have to think about you first and think about you best. Everybody else is all, maybe I'll hold these guys accountable to their price by trying somebody else, like by giving them the chance. But, but I still think I want to go with that. If they're, if they're, even if they're more expensive by five points, I'm probably going to go with them anyway, because I know they deliver on their.
Or, or, oh man, the, that, that owner, man, I feel bad for her getting in the, that, that booth and telling her like the, they, they ran another one where they showed a plumber on his knees. He had just gotten up off the ground. He was covered up to his shoulders in mud, just dirty, dirty, dirty. It was a recruiting ad.
It was a, it wasn't an ad, but it was a post. They meant it as opposed to say, thank you for your hard work. Yes. Plumbing is dirty. That's a weakness. Plumbing is dirty, but man, we appreciate everybody that does that with us. We'll train you on how to get this thing done. Right. And, and then pss, not all jobs are dirty.
Right. But they're showing the worst of it. They're showing this is what's gonna happen.
Jack: Here's the worst, here's the, yeah.
Matthew: Right. Everybody wants to show, you know, my technicians are in perfect hats and uniforms and they're all smiling and their beards are trimming per nah.
Jack: You know that, that. Reminds me of, of something that has been spinning around in my brain that's, that's, it's not identical, but it's related and it goes back to trust and, and that is, I've.
I know there is research to back up what I'm about to say. I cannot quote the research, but, but the modern market has a far more highly refined sense of bullshit than probably any market ever. And, and at the same time, there is more bullshit that gets paid for as marketing is advertising as branding than probably ever in, in, in the history of, of advertising as a discipline.
Matthew: I apologize. Yeah. That's brilliant. What you just said. That's brilliant. And I apologize. Cause what we're talking and we didn't say this at the beginning. This is a branding technique. This is not advertising. This isn't how you advertise your brand. This is how you. Tell people what your brand stands for and what they stand, what it stands against, right?
I mean, that's what this is all about. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off there, but that's brilliant.
Jack: You know, this is about having a conversation where this is, I mean, and, and frankly you know, I produce a lot of different podcasts and one of the things that I'm constantly pushing for. Is for it to sound and feel like a real conversation and not one of these staged on a, you know, in a TV studio with a producer in my ear and lighters and three different cameramen and a gaffer and a head grip and all that, whatever that stuff is.
No, I want, we're going to interrupt each other. We're going to have a conversation. Because our audience has a highly refined bullshit sensor.
Matthew: Sure. Exactly. And
Jack: I, I want this to be, I want people to hear this and go, yeah, yeah. What he said. And the only way to do that, if you're, if you're fake, people feel it.
They may not be able to say, here's why it's fake. Here's why I don't trust it. But people feel it when it's fake.
Matthew: Right. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Okay. Okay. Okay. So here, let's. I'll give you another example. I love examples. Examples make the world go round. Like if it's real, like we talk Mick Torbay, one of our, one of our writing partners, one of our creative leads, he says this line, real matters.
So I'm going to give you a real example and you can look this up. It's called Noble RV. You can go on their, on their social, on their Facebook page, Noble RV. They're out of Edmonton or just outside of Edmonton, Alberta. They've got two locations now. And. Noble is a client of, I'm not on the account, but it's a client of ours and they sell, they sell and consign mobile homes, like, like, like RV, like drivable RVs, right.
Or, or trailers or whatever, but it's, it's, it's camping. Trailers. And so and their, their, their, their, their mascot is Noble Jones, N O B L E, Noble, like he's a crowd, and it's a bull, and he's not allowed on the lot, so there's like when you, like, so there's lots of rules about how they use the character, but that's not the point, I digress, I just want you to make sure when you, if you ever go and look for it, your audience knows that they've landed in the right place.
Noble RV sells used RVs by telling the, the, the public. What's wrong with them. Not what they not not how not they don't hide what's wrong with them. They say this is what's wrong with this white came into us is what we're going to do with it. But if you if this will bother you, don't buy this unit, we're going to fix it.
It's going to be it's gonna be repaired. But it's a used RV. This is what's wrong with it. I'm going to give you an example of one that they did this. Oh, this one's not on the on the social media, but they've got a whole bunch of examples of them pointing out things that are wrong. But this one came in and went out really quickly.
But they called and challenged The wizard of app partners on the account. They said, Hey, we just, we just consigned an RV. We want to sell it, but it was owned by a pot smoker. And it's, it's, you can tell, and there is no perfume that's, that's masking this order. There's nothing we're going to do to be able to not quickly, it'll be a long time and we don't, we're not letting it sit on the lot.
What do we do? How do we get rid of this thing? How do we get rid of this? This? Honestly, we think it's of it as a piece of crap and, and, and the partner is Steven simple is the, is the lead partner on it. And Steve said to him, he says, Oh, see, you're thinking about it all wrong. He goes, what do you mean? He says, that's not an hindrance at all.
Cause here's the problem. You think you're going to try and sell this to somebody who doesn't smoke pot. No, no, no, guys. We got a special. Anybody who has ever smelt weed is going to recognize the smell of this RV unit. This RV unit was hot box. I'm just telling you right now. That's what you get when you buy this one, you cannot screw this one up.
You can't get in here and all of a sudden make it smell more like pot. It's sold lightning fast by selling the negative, not by selling the positive. I'm going to trust you audience with the negative. And they went like, all right, well, if everything else is fixed, I don't care that it smells like weed because I'm smoking weed in it.
It's not a personal preference, but that's what happened. It sold quickly.
Jack: Okay. Let's play a game. Yeah, go ahead. Let's brainstorm a category of business. Okay. The type of Difficulty with the type of weaknesses, failures, flaws, blah, blah, blah, whatever that they might be dealing with. There's a category of business that I, I'm particularly passionate about alternative health care.
Matthew: Okay, so way, way away from me. So this will be fun. So,
Jack: Let's, you're an alternative healthcare practitioner, you're a a chiropractor or a integrative functional medicine, massage therapist
Matthew: What about a chiropractor? What about a chiropractor that doesn't? Believe in surgery because I think like, like, I'm not a chiropractor, a podiatrist that doesn't believe in a foot surgeon who doesn't believe in surgery things that there's, there's many other treatments that can help you without having to cut your foot open.
Yeah. Would that be alternative medicine? And I think so.
Jack: Yeah, sure.
Matthew: Okay. I write ads for podiatrists that, that, that I, that he tells his clients, he goes, I'm a foot surgeon and I don't believe in foot surgery better than that is I wrote an ad for, for a podiatrist. And it starts off with doctor's offices suck.
That's the first three words of the ad. And then he goes on to explain how they suck, why they suck and what we're going to do to fix that. And if we don't fix that, which it's all about being late, right? It's always doctor's office. Our appointments are always late in the day. And they, and if it's late, we'll pay you.
10 Starbucks gift card so that could to help you wait for us, but they, they very rarely give them out, but they do give them out. And my next ad is going to be a client who gave them a review, a really positive review, but they were 20 minutes waiting in the, in the waiting room. There's your alternative medicine ish.
It's not completely right and it's,
Jack: it's a, it's a nonconventional perspective inside a conventional practice.
Matthew: Exactly. He, we, we, the next two ads and I, and I'm, I'm almost finished writing. One of them is specifically all about. We're, we're highlighting the fact that he's a foot surgeon. Like we don't ever say that until now, we're going to highlight that he's a foot surgeon.
And if he operated on you, it's because you have something incredibly wrong. It's not, you have sore feet. You have something wrong with your foot. You've, you've damaged it in a way that there's no will. It might take a little longer, but non invasive technology is so much better than invasive technology, right?
People are afraid to go under the knife to be, I'll have to be off work, especially with their feet. So let's, that's not, let's not go down.
Jack: So I think of like I have a friend who's a chiropractor. He was my chiropractor before he was my friend, which is, that'll tell you how much I saw him. And I asked him one time because I knew dealing with insurance is a pain in the neck for the chiropractor.
They're short. I asked him about that. And he confessed to me that he, that two thirds of his staff was there because he had to deal with insurance. So I'm speaking now to, to our listeners, there are things about your industry, not just your particular expression in your particular business, but there's things about your industry that everybody in the industry knows at best is suboptimal and probably sucks.
So that's where you start, you start with just acknowledging, Hey I'm a, I'm a naturopathic physician and guess what insurance does not cover what I do and that sucks. It's horrible. And it ain't cheap. And a lot of people just wanna walk away because it's not paid for by insurance. And just own the pain of that.
Matthew: Okay. I got, I got it. Okay. In your scenario, you, you, you said, let's play a game. Yeah. What is an hour of, of, of that he, of that doctor's time worth? How much would it cost to spend an hour with that doctor?
Jack: I want to say 125, 150 on, I'm thinking of the ones that I know. Okay.
Matthew: Right. And, and, and, and there's no insurance that's going to cover it, right?
So the, so it's going to cost you this much money. And I need to see you probably 20 times like for the, for this kind of a chronic illness, I'm going to need to see about this many times. That's going to cost you this much money. You know, how you build trust with the, with the potential customer that actually is going to pay for your service and want your service.
And you're never going to have to talk price with them. You know what you do put the price on the website. You know what other people in the same industry are not going to do put price on the website because they think that they can convince them to pay that money through conversation. All you've done is wasted your time with people who are not going to pay that because they don't believe in it enough to pay that price.
But if it's already listed, if it's already on the website. They come in, they do the research, they go, yeah, I want to use you and all you have to do is charge them that price. Now you've delivered on a promise, but you've already trusted them with the data. You've given the data away. It's a, it's still a trust play.
I've given you the data, metal roofing, Armaduro metal roof does this now they put, they give, they give broad spectrum ranges of pricing, metal roofing is three times the cost of an asphalt roof. It's not cheap. It's not cheap. It lasts five times as long, but it's three times the cost up front. Okay. So yes, you'll save money over time, but that's, that's rationalizing it.
Don't rationalize it. Here's the price. And for this size roof, roughly from here to here, like a thousand square feet of roofing or 2000 square feet of roofing, it's going to cost you between this and this price. If you don't have these difficulties, this is the base price. Here's the difficulties that would make it go up.
Now people can justify it in their mind. They're not embarrassed to ask you the price question because they don't want to have to go. Oh, that's too expensive. I can't afford it. Now you've eliminated that you've been very good to your, to, to even the customers that aren't your customers. So even if somebody else that they know might be a customer here, they'll sell the, now they're not afraid to go, Hey, they've got the price on the website, man, you go check it out.
It was a little too much for us, but I think you'd want to do that. Right. You've given them that power, but the, and they trusted you. They'll trust you. The, the, the I'm trying to think of a good example, another trust them, trust on website. That's right. Price on website. Big website. Price on website.
Jack: That is definitely a violation of the conventional wisdom. Oh, don't want your cause. You don't want your competitors to know what you're, you're charging. They're going to use it against you.
Matthew: They're going to, they're going to go cheaper. Yeah, here's what they're not going to do though. They're still not going to list on the website because they do not believe that it works We have we have a ozark ozark.
Remodeling in Middle of the country. I can't remember and they're but in the ozarks
Jack: Why would you say probably missouri or arkansas?
Matthew: Let's just say they're in missouri. They they have price on website. They have bathroom packages that that have ranges They say if you have a small bathroom medium bathroom big bathroom Here's what the price ranges look like for a rebuild a remodel or a refresh You can start as low as this, 5, 000 for a refresh, or you can be 250, 000 for a remodel of a massive bathroom.
Here's the price range, but now if you pick now, we know your bathroom is the middle bathroom in between this and this, and you know, you just want to refresh it. Now you're between this and this. It's all on the website before you ever purchase. You know what? Nobody ever asks him for a discount because if
Jack: they, I would just, I want to just stop right there.
Think about that. Think about that. Folks. Imagine doing something that was so powerful that nobody ever asked you for a discount.
Matthew: Well, they have, they trust him, but the price is right. Because he's put it out there. It's already in the world, right? And he, and he is not the cheapest in the market. He believes he's the best.
He puts himself out there to be the best. And now that was a project I got. I'm not, I'm not on the team. I don't write the ads. It was, it was a project I went out on just to help them understand price because of the trust play, try some price on website. And he's like, I wouldn't, I would never go backwards.
The, here's what we did. We created work for him as prices inflation happens. He's got to read, has to read us price every year. Big deal. Oh no, I'm sorry. Did we make it difficult for you? He's like, yeah, no, I taught, I take half the calls that I used to no more tire kickers, nobody trying to figure out price.
I only have buyers. What? You don't have to talk to all this many people. So your sales must be there. You're talking to less people. Your sales must be down. No, my sales are the same or a little bit up. Actually they're up every year because we have really good radio ads written by some other partners, but they talk to less people.
They have less wasted time. They make money more profit.
Jack: Closing rate is up.
Matthew: Yeah. Closing closing rate is it's ridiculous. Imagine a world. Where everybody trusts you before they know you, or they say, oh, imagine that world. What would it look like? What happens? Well, the, the sale goes by quicker because there's less of the, do should
Jack: I, I don't know.
They're just, at this point, they're just figuring out, do you have the thing I want? I trust you. Do you have it?
Matthew: Negotiation goes away, right? You wouldn't negotiate with your mom says, Oh, Hey, can we go over to the, go over to Sobeys and buy the, the, the, the, they've got that thing you really wanted. It's, it's 18, right?
I already shopped around. I, I know that it's 18 there. It's not 18 anywhere else. It's only to go there and buy. Are you ever going to argue that? No, you're not. You trust your mom. You're going to run over. You're going to grab the 18 thing. You're going to come out. If you trust the person innately, Okay.
You don't negotiate. You just pay what they say because you trust that they're not ripping you off. Now, here's the thing. You can use this for evil. Sorry, guys. And parenthetically,
Jack: if you can't use it for evil, It's not very good, right? It's just a principle.
Matthew: Right. But understand when you use it for evil, it only works short term. Yep. When you, when you can use it for evil, but you are a do gooder or a good doer. Yeah. One of those two, it's the Canadian thing again, right? If you know, if you know that you, that you're doing it for the right reason.
And it could work for evil. It's brilliant and will work forever because you're delivering everything you said you were going to deliver. Be an awesome company. Be awesome. Treat people well, deliver more than they ask for and charge for it. Yeah.
Jack: Right. Be in reality who you claim to be.
Matthew: Right. I mean, there's, there's a, I mean, another podcast, there's another whole thing about how you treat people after a sale and what you deliver for surprise and delight and also other things.
But, but you want to build trust, be upfront, give away, give away more than, than you pit than, than they're expecting. Give away more of the information than they're expecting. Like this guys, like I'm saying, you could hire us. We would do a great job. We would come out there and we would destroy your market for you.
Or I'm telling you, start it now. Start. Start. Posting vulnerabilities and weaknesses on your Facebook page or your Instagram or whatever social media you use, start, start putting price on website. You can do that right now. You don't need us to tell you how to do that. You do that now. And you start seeing a lift.
Okay. Well, then we want to write your ads, but you can do this yourself. Do it. I mean, there's nothing stopping you. Here's the, here's the football. Here's the football. You're on the 10, you're on the 10 yard line. What are you gonna do with it? Right? Take it and go. I promise you this will work. And, and I'll, I'll even, I'll even go one better.
You have my social media handles, right?
Jack: Did you send them to me?
Matthew: Yeah, I put them in, you, you asked for it in the social media handles guys. Here's my challenge. Anybody listening? This is all you got to do. Fend me on Facebook or LinkedIn. Use those two. Those are right. And my, and I don't, I don't sell on social media.
So just so you know, when you get there, that's on how I run my business. But for those that are doing this, that's how you run yours. Matthew Burns is my name. LinkedIn is being with being wizardly is, is my LinkedIn profile name. And Matthew Burns is my Facebook one. And It'll be in the comments or wherever Jack puts them for you, friend me.
I accept everybody because I have nothing to hide. So friend me then post a vulnerability. So what I've done is I've trained myself that whenever I see a vulnerable post, I like it. If it's amazing. If it's a really good post, I'll comment on it and I'll help your cause. I'll say, Oh my gosh, this is incredible.
Everybody should write again. I'll make it, you know, correlate with the post. You'll help promote it. And thirdly, if it's brilliant, I'm sharing that mother with everybody, like all my partners are going to know this is a company that we need to watch because these guys are going to be doing brilliant things.
Challenge yourself, find a weakness, find a flaw, find vulnerability, something you can share, share it, something about your business. If you, if you just want to show, do one, you want, you want people to trust you as a human being, just as an individual. And you just want to do on your, on your personal social media, do it that way.
It doesn't have to be for your business. Try it out with just your friend group. Tell people that you made a mistake. Man, I got, I got duped by the, by the guy at the, at the automotive center. And he, you know, I paid too much. Thing wasn't even broken. I hate it when that happens. Right. And your very next post, you're going to see that post is going to get engaged.
Oh man, I can't believe I'm so sorry for that. Man, you're the best. It sucks when people take, take, don't, don't take care of you. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Completely. Completely just, just hit me right now. I help a plumber locally. In my, I don't take clients on in Nova Scotia. I'm from Halifax, Nova Scotia. I don't take local clients, but I like helping business no matter who they are.
So I have, it's called, they're called home and plumbing. They don't have a website. They're very small, but I, I found them because they posted something and I happened to be friends of a friend. And then I dumped in, I said, guys, this is amazing. You got to do more of this. They, they were getting ripped off by a builder.
And, and it was for a restaurant chain that was coming in the builder asked them to go back and do some work and then didn't pay them. Okay. And so instead of saying that, so, and so, and I can't believe and instead of doing that on social media, what they said was, I can't believe I allowed myself to be taken advantage of.
Oh, that's nice. That is powerful. I can't believe I allowed myself to get taken care of. Yeah. And the support he got from his community was incredible. I can imagine like, Oh, Hey, listen, I was holding off on doing this plumbing job. Why don't you come and do it now? I need you to get, I want you to make sure you guys have that money.
Like people started paying them to do small little things. And he's like, guys, that's not what I, that's not what this was for. I really, I want these guys to know that it's not right. They shouldn't be taking care, but, but I can't believe I've done this before. It's a, it's a flaw of mine. I trust. And I go and do that.
I want the job to be done. Right. And I. Stupid me. I won't do this again. I gotta, I gotta guys, the support I need is don't let me do this again. Like, wow, what a powerful sentence, right? And the support was amazing. This guy made cash and he didn't do it on purpose, which means it was authentic and real.
Which means it was real, right?
Jack: Yes. All right. So, so if you're a business owner and you're listening to this right now and you're feeling something in your gut, if it's the butterflies or, or, or you got a little bit of a butt clench going on, whatever it is, if you're reacting to what you're hearing emotionally, that is your body telling you there's tremendous power here.
Follow that up. Do not let this go unacted upon. Don't let it go unactive. And you know what? If you're having no response to this, this message isn't for you. So don't worry about it. All right. We've been going an hour. So I don't want to, I don't want to over overstay my welcome here. Yeah.
Matthew: Put my social medias there.
Let those, let, let your, let your listeners connect with me. And I promise you guys, that's, it's a challenge. If I get nothing out of this, I'm, I'll be disappointed in y'all. That'll be cool. I use y'all for the Americans. Y'all.
Jack: That was well done. And you used it, you used it correctly as well. Yes. All right.
I want to finish with you ever watch James Litton's Inside the Actors
Matthew: Studio? Yeah, I've seen the, I've seen a lot of those. That,
Jack: that's awesome. Yeah. The, you know, I had the 10 questions he'd ask everybody. Yeah. I'm gonna have, I've got, I have two questions done. And you get to pick whichever one you want to, you want to answer.
I only need you to answer one, so, but I'm gonna give you the choice. Okay. And I'd like. I like both of these. I don't none of these were Lipton's questions. I think I got these from, I think Marcel Proust is actually the one who, who had these as a list of questions and I don't think more highly of me than I deserve.
I've never read Marcel Proust except this list. I love these two questions. Pick one to answer. What natural gift would you most like to possess or how would you like to die? Go.
Matthew: Damn you. Damn you. Okay. You know what? I, I know. Here's the thing. I don't, I, I, I, I don't fear death and not in a way where like, I don't want to die, but I don't fear death as far as like, I don't have a choice. So I don't worry about things that I can't control. So I'm not going to worry about that one. That's the natural gift that I would like to have.
I would love the natural ability. To instantly soothe people who are feeling emotional distress, like instantly, I want, I want the natural ability to go. Everything's going to be okay because I, I, I, I'm truly a very, I don't worry about a ton of things. My wife hates it. My wife's a warrior. So it's more, this is really truly because I want to make my wife more at peace all the time, but she's a natural way.
But anybody, if I saw somebody like, and they had a car accident and they were freaking out, but just, okay. Listen, we're gonna get through this and if that would just instantly bring them into center and calm and feel, feel at peace for the moment, I would love to be able to do that. That would be, that would be my gift.
That would be my, my, my special ability.
Jack: I'd love. Okay, that calls to mind a follow up question. Do you have a personal motto? And if so, what is it?
Matthew: It's, you know what, Roy, Roy, Roy H. Williams asked me this a long time ago, and I said. I said to him that because I'm, I'm a co, I'm a baseball coach I've been, I've been playing for years.
My grandfather played for Cincinnati. I played up to college. My, my oldest son played to college and now we run our own baseball academy frostbite baseball academy.
Jack: I was going to say, we need to, we'll, we'll make sure that one shows up in the show notes. Anybody who's interested in this, you'll be able to get details.
Matthew: Yeah. But is, is. You need you need to you need to never worry about making mistakes. That's my motto and it's it's and it comes from from we we call it being a one pitch warrior. So, I was a pitcher my grandfather was a pincher for the Cincinnati Reds my son pitch for the Ontario Blue Jays and then he traveled all through the US.
Before he went to college, but that was his highlight reel and.
If you let the last thing, the last mistake you made control your future, you're going to make more mistakes. So a pitcher who, who constantly goes, Oh man, that guy took me yard, which means that guy hit a home run off me. If that's, if that's what you're concentrating on, on the next pitch, you're going to throw a crappy pitch.
So a better example is Ted Lasso, the TV show, Ted Lasso, which is one of my favorite. TV shows, super duper written, really like brilliantly written and he says, be a goldfish. It's the exact same thing, right? 10 second memory. Don't worry about what happened before you cannot change it. How do you affect the future?
So for your business owners, I think that's, that's probably the thing they should be thinking about. Listen, I don't care what mistakes you made in business. Cause you know what you did a whole bunch of right things to get to where you're at. Who cares about the mistakes? What's next? What's next? What's next?
What's next? Show up. Do the next thing. Go. Never ponder why you did the last thing. Good stuff.
Jack: Good stuff. That's fun. That is. Well, you know, I, I love doing this. It's, it is so much fun. All right. Real quick, what's the, what's your preferred method for somebody who wants to work with you to get ahold of you?
Matthew: Matthew Burns, m a t t h e w. Burns at the Wizard of Ad. No, no, sorry, of Wizard of Ads. So know the wizard of ads.com. That's matthewBurns@wizardofads.com. And I, I'll answer questions. Guys, we, I, we love talking about stuff. That's why we're doing this today. And I, yeah. Yeah.
Jack: Ask questions . We live for this stuff.
Matthew: We really do. All right, man. We're old now and we got all this stuff bouncing around in our heads. So we would love to share it.
Jack: I'm, I'm going to call it a day partly because I've got another interview coming up and partly because I try to keep it at an hour.
Matthew: Sowho's it with? Sexton. Professor Jeff Sexton.
You're guys going to love that one. All right. Well, I'm out then.
Jack: You and I are going to continue to talk. Okay. It's just not going to be on the podcast. Done. All right, man. Thanks for dropping in. This is the Cult Your Brand podcast. This has been Matthew Burns. I'm Jack Heald. We'll talk to you next time.